An interview with Archpriest Vadim Leonov, associate professor at the Sretensky Theological Seminary, which back in 2010 outlined the outline of such a phenomenon as Orthodox psychology, which should replace secular psychology and provide answers to those questions that the paradigm of academic psychology could not answer.
Associate Professor at Sretensky Theological Seminary and PSTGU Archpriest Vadim Leonov took part in the seminar “Development of psychological education in theological educational institutions of the Educational Committee of the Russian Orthodox Church”. At the end of the seminar, Father Vadim answered the questions of the correspondent of the press service of the Moscow Theological Academy.
– Father Vadim, what is the scope of your scientific interests?
– I am interested in dogmatic theology in general and Orthodox anthropology in particular, but I must say right away that I do not consider these theological disciplines to be sciences in the traditional sense of the word.
– Give examples of the application of psychology in your priestly practice?
– I do not use psychology in my priestly ministry and I think that a priest should be just a priest and not turn into a psychologist. The gift of the priesthood, the sacraments of the Church, the received spiritual education are quite sufficient for a full-fledged pastoral ministry, one must be able to use this. If the priest has not mastered this wealth, then additional knowledge of psychology will not bring him any benefit. Everyone must do their job. Of course, observing from the outside one can interpret certain actions of the priest in a psychological aspect, but such interpretations remain only assumptions of an external observer. A priest in all life situations should be, first of all, a priest. Don't try to get into the wrong sleigh. It happens that in some situations a priest cannot help a person with spiritual means, and then he slides down to the level of psychotherapy in order to somehow help his neighbor. Maybe this is not bad, and after such a meeting a person is comforted, but if something like this happened in my life, then I always considered such cases as my spiritual defeat. A priest should not build his ministry on sincerity. Christ gave his disciples the gift of the Holy Spirit: “Receive the Holy Spirit. To whom you forgive sins, they will be forgiven; on whom you leave, they will remain on that, ”and if the priest descends to the level of spiritual psychotherapy, then he exchanges birthright for lentil stew (See: Gen. 25, 30-34).
What I have said does not mean that I am against psychology. Moreover, I am in favor of studying psychology in seminaries so that it is taught by competent professionals who would help seminarians see the true content and value of this science without the illusions that surround it. The study of psychology is necessary primarily because in the modern world it is a very striking phenomenon that powerfully affects the consciousness of many people. This cannot be ignored. Moreover, in some social environments, psychology occupies niches that previously belonged exclusively to religion. Modern culture, art, social or personal life are often oriented in line with certain psychological ideas, therefore, in order to understand the meaning and logic of human actions, it is necessary, willingly or not, but to get acquainted, at least in the most general form, with the prevailing psychological theories. Based on this, the need to study psychology for future clergy is obvious. Moreover, St. Theophan the Recluse foresaw such a development of events in the field of spiritual education back in the 19th century. The use of psychological knowledge by a priest on the principle of supplementation is quite possible, but psychology cannot be the basis for the ministry of a priest.
—Is there a danger of seminary students getting too carried away with psychology?
“This is a very real danger. One of my former fellow students at the Moscow Theological Academy became so interested in psychology that it forced out the study of all theological subjects in him. After graduating from the academy, he entered a humanitarian university and began to study as a psychologist. As far as I know, he never returned to the church environment.
There are many myths about psychology in everyday life. In one of them, this science appears as a treasury of mysterious knowledge that can make a person spiritually strong, wise and perfect and, surprisingly, without God. This is reminiscent of the temptation of our ancient forefathers in paradise, when the serpent invited them to become gods without God: “on the day you eat them, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil” (Gen.3:5 ). If a person with such illusions is carried away by psychology, then he soon experiences a deep disappointment, somewhat similar to the disappointment of our forefathers. For he will be offered a lot of concepts, theories and reasoning about various aspects of the psyche and subjectivity of a person, will be provided with some methods that solve local problems of interpersonal relations and will give many different descriptions of mental processes, but will not give the main thing - a holistic vision of a person and opportunities for his full-fledged real growth . It turns out that this is precisely science ... no less and no more. Therefore, a psychology course in seminaries is necessary, and must be built competently, professionally and objectively. If, after studying such a course, a seminarian at least has a sober vision of psychology, this is already a sufficient result that justifies the time and effort spent.
- In what ways do the practices of communication between a spiritual father and a child and a psychologist with a client intersect?
- Nothing. These are fundamentally different areas. Of course, both the priest and the psychologist must see a person as a whole, but the priest is called to awaken the spirit of a person and help him reunite with God, and the psychologist works in the sphere of the soul. Their work is going on, so to speak, on different floors. The goal of a confessor is to teach a person to communicate with God and further to contribute to this in every possible way. If a person lives with God, then God Himself will heal, correct, enlighten, do everything necessary in a person by His grace. The main thing for a priest, as well as for a doctor, is not to harm. None of the people on their own is capable of spiritual improvement, even with vast knowledge and life experience. Only God does it.
The work of a psychologist is addressed to a different area. It is focused on the normalization of the state of mind of a person and interpersonal relationships. If a psychologist sees a client in a person who comes to him, then this is sad. In this case, the psychologist is a craftsman, and one can only sympathize with the human client. However, this is not the way to treat all psychologists. Among them, many are deeply aware of the depth, greatness and dignity of a person and try to help him, to the best of his ability, precisely as a person, and not as a client. Of course, psychotherapy is spiritual help, but in many life situations it is necessary and a competent believing psychologist can provide it. Since most of life's problems have spiritual roots, one cannot expect a full recovery of a person after such meetings, so many Orthodox psychologists strive not only to provide assistance, but also to bring a person closer to God, they offer to come to the temple, repent, take communion, start a virtuous life. Such psychologists bring real benefits to people, not only mentally, but also spiritually. Therefore, it is not necessary to represent all psychologists in only three forms: a psychic, a businessman, an artisan.
– What is your attitude to such a phenomenon as Orthodox psychology?
– Orthodox psychology is an idea that has not yet been realized, but I consider myself one of those optimists who believe that sooner or later it will definitely form as a special scientific direction in modern psychology. It is sometimes said that the existence of Orthodox mathematics, Orthodox physics is impossible, which means that Orthodox psychology is also impossible. In my opinion, this is an erroneous statement. With regard to mathematics and physics, everything is correct, but in relation to psychology and pedagogy, this logic is erroneous. I'll explain why. Any science is based on several a priori unsubstantiated ideas, in accordance with which scientific activity is carried out, and these ideas largely determine this activity. We all remember from the school course that the study of geometry began with the adoption of a number of axioms. For mathematics and physics, the initial foundations, accepted a priori, lie outside the sphere of religious revelation, and therefore it is absurd to talk about their Orthodoxy or non-Orthodoxy. But for pedagogy and psychology, the original anthropological model is necessary. Such a model always exists and largely determines the direction of development of these sciences, and the whole range of possible scientific results. For example, if the pedagogical approach is based on the idea of a person as a highly developed animal, then the corresponding pedagogical methods will be similar to training; if initially a person is presented as a complexly organized machine like a computer, then the methods of education will resemble programming; if based on the opinion that a person is formed solely under the influence of society and other external conditions, then the corresponding pedagogical methodology will be focused on the organization of the external environment of a person. The anthropological framework largely determines the direction, scale, content, means and possibilities of a particular pedagogical, psychological approach. In this regard, what prevents scientists from accepting the Orthodox teaching about man as the initial anthropological model? How is the anthropological model “man is the image of God”, substantiated by two thousand years of experience of the Church, inferior to Darwin's hypothesis, still not scientifically substantiated, that “man is a highly developed ape”? Who knows man best if not God the Creator? He gave us the necessary knowledge about himself, and science does not use it. Why? Just the power of their divinely revealed origin? This anthropological knowledge is confirmed by the real experience of many generations - why is it ignored by modern academic science? Maybe it's time to get rid of this bias? I am sure that over time Orthodox psychology will become a significant phenomenon in scientific life. Moreover, Orthodox pedagogy has already partially passed this path and has become an important direction in pedagogical science.
– What are the points of contact between Christian anthropology and Orthodox psychology?
– Christian anthropology is the substantive basis for Orthodox psychology. More precisely, Orthodox anthropology is a new coordinate system for psychology, in the space of which the spiritual content of already established scientific facts and theories is revealed, it becomes possible for other interpretations of known phenomena with access to concrete real help to a person. This approach allows us to talk about the possibility of creating Orthodox psychology. Similar attempts have already been made in pedagogy and they have been very successful. A striking example is the concept of K.D. Ushinsky, who put Orthodox anthropology at the basis of his pedagogical system. Work in this direction is now very active. Of course, in this case, Orthodox anthropology is not an alternative to existing psychological knowledge, but, as we have already said, it is a meaningful basis and a coordinate system in which one can study a person and interpret the results obtained.
– What do you expect from the ongoing seminar?
- I hope that the stated goal will be achieved - the content, methodological and methodological foundations of the psychology course for teaching in theological schools have been developed. And besides, I hope that this seminar will strengthen the sincere intentions of Orthodox psychologists who, based on their professionalism and personal enthusiasm, are trying to discover for themselves and others the spiritual wealth of the Church and thereby serve God and people.
Interviewed by Anastasia Shiryaeva
P.S. Article by Archpriest Vadim Leonov "The concepts of "Mind", "Reason", "Reason" in the patristic tradition in the journal "Psychological Science and Education", 2011, No. 3
On Priesthood, Pastoring and Confessions
What is priesthood, shepherding, confession, what is the meaning and difference between these concepts? How to choose a confessor? Is it possible to move from one spiritual guide to another? What is young eldership, why did it arise, is it a problem for the Church? Archpriest Vadim Leonov, lecturer at the Sretensky Theological Seminary, answers these and other questions.
—Father Vadim, you have been teaching at the Sretensky Seminary for many years, preparing future clergymen. Tell me, please, what is the priesthood, shepherding, clergy, what is the meaning and difference between these concepts?
– It seems to me that you should ask this question to a priest who has served at the Throne of God for 50 years. He would answer you, drawing from his rich spiritual experience, which I do not yet have.
- And, nevertheless, you already have an idea of how these concepts correlate?
- It worked out a little. The words you indicated are not formal terms with a strictly defined content, so many authors use them in their own way, fill them with their own meaning. At first glance, it seems that everyone seems to be talking about the same thing, but if you listen carefully, it turns out that everyone is talking about his own. Very often the priesthood, the pastor and the priesthood are understood as one and the same. There is no doubt that these words are interconnected, but I think it is not worth identifying them completely. Priesthood is a grace-filled supernatural gift that is given to a specific chosen person through the performance of a special church sacrament over him. Shepherding is one of the manifestations of the gift of the priesthood, that is, the priest receives in the sacrament grace-filled power and authority to help people ascend to God. And spirituality is an even narrower concept: the ability to enlighten and heal people's souls from sin with the help of the grace of God. Summarizing, we can say that every priest from the moment of consecration already has the fullness of gifts in order to realize himself as a priest, and as a shepherd, and as a confessor, but in reality everything turns out differently: a person received a gift from God, and what to do with it and how to use it correctly is something you have to learn for the rest of your life. Therefore, naturally, young priests are in no hurry to be confessors, so as not to harm at least. Our goal is to help reunite man with God. And God Himself knows how and with what to heal a suffering soul.
– Did the Old Testament priesthood have similar duties?
- Of course not. The overwhelming majority of Old Testament priests were clerks. After returning from the Babylonian captivity, Ezra and Nehemiah tried to encourage them to become teachers and guides to the people, but few listened to this. Therefore, by the time of the Savior's coming into the world, in Jewish society, there independently existed a class of teachers (rabbis) and a class of priests, who were often at enmity with each other.
– Can every ordained priest serve as a confessor, or are there any restrictions?
– Every priest has the opportunity for this, but in reality, to be a confessor, only the gift of the priesthood is not enough, you also need a great personal experience of victory over your sins and passions, and necessarily firm faith and strong rootedness in the Orthodox spiritual tradition, that is, spiritual experience many generations, which is transmitted from experienced confessors to students informally, in real life and communication, through obedience. It is even possible that a person who does not have a holy order can become a confessor. An excellent example of this from recent history is the blessedly reposed elder Paisios Svyatogorets, who spiritually nourished hundreds of lay people and monks, but did not have a holy order.
– What is a confessor for a clergyman?
– This is a spiritual foundation, and a lifeline, and a mentor, and a prayer book, and a good adviser, a source of many blessings that cannot be listed. Without a confessor, a young clergyman is doomed to endure many sorrows. Imagine that a certain person, who had previously only seen ice from afar, was given skates, a stick and released as a player on a hockey team. What will happen to him after 20 minutes of play? Well, if they manage only to call an ambulance. And there will be many injuries in the spiritual life of a young clergyman without a confessor.
– What advice would you give about choosing a confessor??
– Do not look for the elders: they are already “busy”, they are tightly surrounded by spiritual children so that you most likely will not break through their “brotherhood of the ring”. Do not try to become a child of wonderful, but already famous priests: they are terribly overloaded. Do not run to distant lands - it's pointless. Your confessor is somewhere nearby. Find a priest who loves God, the Church and for whom the spiritual is more important than the earthly. If such a priest treats you with love, but without pleasing people (this is important!) then this is quite enough.
– Is it possible to change the confessor? How can you not offend anyone?
- This question, when I was still a seminarian, was asked to the well-known confessor of the Trinity-Sergius Lavra, Archimandrite Kirill (Pavlov), and he firmly and unequivocally answered that you can switch to another confessor if you do not benefit from communication with the former one. Of course, such a transition is an event that should occur in exceptional cases. A flower that is constantly transplanted from one flower bed to another is likely to wither. In order not to offend the former confessor, you do not need to present your transition as a demonstration of protest and from that moment on pretend that “I don’t know this priest and don’t want to know.” Try to maintain good human relations with him.
– How deeply can a confessor influence a person’s life? What is a confessor not allowed to do?
– The possibilities are very large, and the framework of these relations is formed by both sides. In other words, the influence of a confessor is possible to the extent that he himself wants and to the extent that his spiritual child allows him. In certain cases, the degree of influence can be very strong, so being a confessor is an extremely responsible church ministry. In patristic writings there are many instructions on what a spiritual mentor should be, but I have not seen a clear enumeration of the rights and duties of a confessor. I really like the wonderful “Special Word to the Shepherd” by St. John of the Ladder, which, it seems to me, every priest should reread regularly. It is unequivocal that the confessor in every person who comes to him must see a unique god-like personality and with his instructions cannot suppress his consciousness and freedom.
– Do I need to go to the elders for spiritual advice?
– The tradition of eldership was interrupted in Soviet times, so it’s better to talk about experienced confessors. At turning points in life, especially if they are related to a person’s spiritual problems, the guidance of such a confessor can be very useful, but on condition that the person has confidence and is ready to implement the advice given to him.
– Are there elders in modern Russia?
– The confessor of the Trinity-Sergius Lavra Archimandrite Kirill (Pavlov) answered this question wonderfully: “There are old people, but I don’t know the elders.”
- What is infancy? Why did it arise, is it a problem for the Church?
“Young old age is the growing pains of a young priest who imagines that he has what he does not yet have, tries to act as a spirit-bearing mentor, not possessing the appropriate gifts and abilities. Young eldership arises from conceit and easily finds a place in the heart of a priest if he has some zeal for spiritual life, but does not have an experienced mentor of himself. Such a problem exists, but in order to solve it, it is necessary to see the opposite extreme - lukewarmness and indifference to the priesthood. When a priest, under the pretext of his inexperience and lack of education, shirks from diligent service and, in fact, takes care of himself only, this is a disaster. The prophet Ezekiel sternly warned about this danger: “Thus says the Lord God: Woe to the shepherds of Israel, who fed themselves!” (Ezekiel 34:2). A young priest needs to walk between these two extremes. For this, a mentor is needed.
- Meetings with what people have strongly influenced your life path?
- It seems to me that every meeting, even a fleeting one - somewhere in the subway or on the street, has its own meaning and impact, which we most often do not realize. There have been many meetings with various people in my life, and for all this I thank the Lord, but I cannot single out any one of them that immediately turned my life upside down, except for the first meeting with God. When I was still a student at a secular university and was trying to figure out religious issues on my own, the idea came to me to conduct a spiritual experiment. I thought that if God exists and He is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent, as they write about Him, then I will turn to Him personally, and let Him answer me, then all my doubts will disappear. And I said to Him, "Lord, if You exist, then let me know about it, and I will serve You." After this prayer, events began to occur in my life, as a result of which I became a priest.
What is the most important quality for a priest?
- Sacrifice.
– Who is a model of shepherding for you?
Our Lord Jesus Christ.
– And what books help you in your pastoral ministry?
- Gospel and Missal.
—Father Vadim, what are the main qualities that the future wife of a clergyman should have? What should the future mother be ready for?
– Being a mother is a special kind of spiritual feat. She must be ready to become an assistant to her husband, to come to terms with the fact that her husband-priest does not belong to her alone. Know how to manage children and the home. Say goodbye to girlish dreams even before the wedding and go not where you want, but where the Lord will lead the husband-priest. Simply put, she must be a saint.
- What are the "pitfalls" encountered in young families, and how to overcome them?
– The main stone is selfishness. Selfishness kills love, gives rise to quarrels and meaningless family "showdowns". Family selfishness is cured by common family work - both spiritual (family prayer, confession with one confessor, deeds of mercy performed together), and spiritual (joint upbringing of children, reading books, communicating with relatives and friends), and bodily (taking care of the house, rest and etc.). At the same time, each member of the family must correspond to the divine destiny. The husband is the head of the family, he is responsible for everything that happens in it and solves its problems; the wife is the helper of the husband, and the children are the helpers of both the father and the mother.
– What problems in parish life are, in your opinion, paramount?
– It seems to me that the main problem in the modern parish is personal. Maybe this is a legacy of the Soviet times, but most people enter the temple with caution, hide their faces from each other, try to hide behind artificial masks even from God, and we, the priests, do not always strive to peer into the faces of our parishioners and help them open up. in their very best qualities. In most cases, you don’t have to be some kind of spirit-bearing elder, but simply treat a person like a human being, explain to him the path to God, help him a little, and then a miracle of the transformation of the human soul takes place before our eyes. It's so amazing, and it takes so little! It is easy to understand that the parishioners are not a group of individuals who came to pray, but specific individuals with their own names, destinies and thirst for God, and treat them as relatives.
Our guest was a candidate of theology, a cleric of the Patriarchal Compound of Churches in Zaryadye, Archpriest Vadim Leonov.
The conversation was about what Christianity says about man and about the image of God in man.
A. Pichugin
- "Bright Evening" on the light radio. Dear listeners, hello! Here, in this studio Alla Mitrofanova ...
A. Mitrofanova
- ... Alexey Pichugin.
A. Pichugin
And we introduce our guest: Archpriest Vadim Leonov, a teacher at the Sretensky Seminary, an associate professor, a candidate of theology and a cleric of churches in Zaryadye, will spend the next hour with you and with us, this is such a place, probably many people know it, because there was a hotel "Russia ”, that’s right next to the Kremlin. Father Vadim is a specialist in Christian anthropology. And so I would like to ask the very first question: what is Christian anthropology after all? What meaning do we put in this phrase? Because in the 1990s, for some reason, we liked to call this word, to designate a very large number of different scientific manifestations. We had cultural anthropology and the faculty of cultural anthropology in one of the major universities, Christian anthropology. Although initially, if we talk about a purely scientific field, I know that at the Faculty of Biology of Moscow University, for example, there is an anthropological department that graduates specialists in the field of studying the origin of species.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Good evening, our dear listeners! You are right, Alexey. There is a lot of anthropology in the modern cultural space: political anthropology, social anthropology, psychological anthropology, philosophical anthropology, anthropology in general. And then there is also Christian anthropology. And what is the difference, the fundamental difference between Christian anthropology and all these scientific disciplines? First, it is a theological subject. If we turn to secular anthropology, we will see one common property: they take a certain part of a person, the sphere of his life, activity, and study in detail, reconstruct his being as a person and as a social subject, in different aspects. But all these spheres belong to the visible, sensual world. And all these reconstructions are, of course, very interesting, bright in content, but they do not isolate and do not formulate the foundation of a person, thanks to which this multifactorial complex being becomes integral. Just imagine: you are sitting here at the table now, you see, hear, breathe, blood flows through your veins, some other processes are going on in your body, and all this is harmonized into one integrity called “man”. And it must be admitted that this foundation of human integrity is not visible either from the point of view of psychology, or from the point of view of sociology, or from the point of view of physiological anthropology, which you spoke about, which is taught at the university. It is not visible anywhere in the scientific field. Why is she not visible? Yes, because it does not lie in the material world and is not yet accessible, at least by means of scientific knowledge. It is not in the plane of physics, it is in the space of metaphysics. "Meta physis" is a Greek word - "behind nature", that is, behind the natural basis. It's obvious, right? Because I exist as an integral being, and in this respect both my soul and body are harmonized. Where is this center of organization? Of course, it is somewhere there, since scientific means cannot “get” it, penetrate it, reconstruct it.
A. Mitrofanova
Maybe someone will say that it is the brain.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
He can say that this is the brain, but you must not just say it, you must prove it. So far, this has not been proven.
A. Mitrofanova
Oh, you know, this is a separate big conversation. As for neurobiology and all the studies of the modern brain, the results of the studies are paradoxical, and in some ways even for a person who beats self-esteem. For example, in the lectures of Tatyana Chernigovskaya, a lot is said on this topic. It is not known who belongs to whom - the brain to us or we to him? And apparently, we belong to him, not he to us. Therefore, it is quite possible that the center of harmonization… I understand that you, as the author of a book on Christian anthropology, as a priest…
A. Pichugin
Yes, it is also necessary to say about this - about the book.
A. Mitrofanova
- ...the main message you carry is that the center of harmonization is really from the field of metaphysics. But just neuroscientists can object to this.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Of course, they can object to this, but I repeat that this must be proved. Consistent neuroscientists do not make such bold statements as you did.
A. Mitrofanova
I stated this on my own, of course, this is a gag.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
It's clear. I can offer you as a recommendation: read, for example, the work of our wonderful doctor, surgeon and at the same time a person who deeply knows human nature, and a holy man - St. Luke Voyno-Yasenetsky, his work "Spirit, Soul and Body". He just argues with such a naive idea that the brain is the center of human harmonization.
A. Pichugin
But you must admit that since the time of St. Luke, since the 50s, at least, and the book was written even earlier, after all, 60 years have passed, during which the science that studies neuroprocesses has gone far ahead.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Of course, she went far ahead, but she never found this center of human harmonization.
A. Mitrofanova
Well, let's leave this conversation aside, because there is no neuroscientist among us now with whom we could competently talk on this topic. And behind the backs of neuroscientists, to talk about what they think and what not, not being neuroscientists, it seems to me that we have no right, either ethically or in any other way. So let's talk about Christian anthropology better.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
And yet, Allah, I will interrupt you. There is one theological argument that basically explains everything we are discussing. Why me, a priest, and not only me, but in general in the Orthodox tradition it is said that this is a metaphysical foundation in a person. This is proved very simply - by many years of centuries-old human experience. When the soul separates from the body, the brain remains in the coffin. And the soul continues to think, feel, experience, bear responsibility at the Judgment of God. If the center of harmonization were connected specifically with the cells of the brain, then nothing of the kind would be possible.
A. Pichugin
You know, father Vadim, I don't want to argue with you either. But, on the other hand, if this argument is brought into discussion with a non-believer, it will not matter to him.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Friends, I'm not writing a book about how to convince an unbeliever. The book is about what kind of knowledge about a person in religious experience, in Orthodox religious experience has been accumulated, preserved, and this knowledge is systematically presented. Here the goal is completely different. First of all, for a person… The book was written, I repeat, not to convince someone out there, but in order to provide a means of knowledge for those who are trying to lead a spiritual life, he must understand: who I am. Because when you enter the spiritual life and do not understand who you are, then your path to God will be wandering in the dark. Of course, you will hear some instructions: pray, fast. But when you start praying, fasting, you will have some inner experiences, maybe suffering, maybe joy. And you have to identify it, you have to understand it, you have to understand: is it right or wrong? And if you do not have basic ideas about what a person is from a Christian point of view, you are in for serious mistakes.
A. Pichugin
So let's start with this - who is a person from a Christian point of view?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
A. Mitrofanova
You know, this immediately raises the question: if a person was created in order to live in unity with his Creator, then how should we be? Indeed, almost the entire history of mankind is about how we do not live in unity with the Creator, but live in defiance of Him, in spite of Him, in a dispute with Him. We return tickets to Him, we announce that He has died, etc.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
A. Mitrofanova
And how to deal with it then?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
A. Mitrofanova
And now I'm not even asking about it. It is clear that throughout the history of mankind, most of the time and most of the people still did not question the presence of God in life, etc. Another question is that it is not possible to live with Him in the very unity about which you said that we are called to it. Because even the whole history... Is that what the Old Testament is? This is the story of God's relationship with one people - an agreement with him is concluded, with this people, with God. And God stays true to his part of the contract all the time, and the people keep violating it all the time. And how to deal with it?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
And how to deal with it? And so be it - we must do everything possible to ensure that these people are converted. The fact is that God never forcibly brings anyone to Himself, this is the divine upbringing. God patiently waits for when and who wants to live with Him. Because, I repeat, initially God creates man as a being who will live with Him in love and freedom. And therefore, of course, as an omnipotent being, He could break through the knee and the people of Israel, and all of humanity, and Christianity. But then the main idea - the destiny to live in love and freedom - will not be realized. Therefore, God knocks, as it is said in the Apocalypse: “I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens it, I will come in to him and serve supper with him.” This is how it happens - God knocks on the heart of each of us, whoever opens it will live with Him. And Christianity should bring this good news to everyone. And in this case, the book that we are discussing is a small drop in this river.
A. Pichugin
Archpriest Vadim Leonov - Associate Professor, Lecturer at the Sretensky Theological Seminary, Candidate of Theology today is a guest of the Bright Evening program on the light radio.
A. Mitrofanova
You probably often have to face the questions that if you are a specialist in Christian anthropology, then, in fact, how did man come about? How did it appear as a biological species, or not only as a biological species, but also as some other, different species in the world? There are different scientific points of view on this matter, there is a Christian point of view. And in general, in principle, not only Christian ...
A. Pichugin
Do they contradict each other? Or not? Here is the question.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Of course, there are many theories about how man came into being. But Christianity in this case is not based on any archaeological or historical facts, but is based on the Revelation of God. Who knows about man better than the One Who created him - the Lord God? In this case, Christianity turns to the most authoritative primary source - to its Creator. And God revealed something to us. Of course, he did not discover everything, but he discovered something. And what He revealed, preserved through His prophets, through His holy apostles in the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church, this treasure is scattered like a priceless pearl. And in the 20th century, there was a huge demand for these beads to be presented systematically, because all of humanity is, as Levi-Strauss said, that “the 20th century is the century of an anthropological crisis,” when people came to the conclusion that the development of man without God, since the Renaissance, it gave rise to 2 world wars, a terrible genocide. In general, the 20th century is a solid blood.
A. Pichugin
But can't we say that science, scientific knowledge, everything that we now know with the help of the same evolution, is also man's knowledge about God and about His plan for man, about the creation of man?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
You are so casual - evolution. There is no such category in the Bible - evolution. Involution - that is, degradation, is spelled out there. God creates, according to the Holy Scriptures, because He is good, He is perfect, and He creates all creatures perfect. Therefore, if we follow the text of Holy Scripture, then of course the idea of Charles Darwin, and moreover, its development in modern times, meet, to put it mildly, a great contradiction. And still can't take it off. It doesn't work, and I don't think it will ever work. I will now express my personal point of view that, of course, the evolutionary hypothesis is not sufficiently substantiated. But by no means am I going to have any discussion on this topic here now. I am sure that this same hypothesis, which primarily serves a certain ideology, will exhaust itself through the work of honest scientists, of which there are already quite a lot. And it will exhaust itself just as the idea of the spontaneous generation of life, the concept, the scientific theory of the spontaneous generation of life, exhausted itself in its time. Do you know about her?
A. Pichugin
Oh sure.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
This is an amazing theory...
A. Mitrofanova
Some people know and some don't. You explain, please.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Let me explain for the listeners: it still goes back to Aristotle - the greatest scientist, philosopher, one might say, standing at the foundation of European science. The idea of spontaneous generation of life is that the whole world is saturated with some kind of vital energy, and life is born in any space, if it is given some time for self-organization. Primitively, it looks like this - there was even such an experiment in the 18th century: if you throw dirty things into a dark closet, sprinkle with millet, then mice will start there in a week. This is, of course, ridiculous. Then they began to put more correct, as it seemed, scientific experiments, in the 19th century: a piece of meat - after a few days it rots, worms appear there. It is clear that there are no worms in meat - here you have the spontaneous generation of worms. Such was the proof of this scientific theory about the spontaneous generation of life, until Louis Pasteur disinfected - and the worms did not appear. The idea of spontaneous generation of life, which just preceded Darwin's evolutionary hypothesis, existed for more than 2,000 years. It was considered scientific, proven. So science goes through the negation of itself. I understand that now the prevalence of this hypothesis is very high, and everyone is somehow already used to it, but let's look ahead.
A. Pichugin
Science or...
Prot. Vadim Leonov
- ... through self-denial.
A. Pichugin
There are, after all, in recent decades, finds have also appeared - finds of the first people, finds of Australopithecus, etc., etc. And you can simply trace the dynamics of the development of these skeletons and the evolution of what eventually became homo sapiens.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
The dynamics of the development of skeletons, or rather creatures, just does not line up. This is one of the problems in substantiating the evolutionary hypothesis. The fact is that among the finds there are either creatures with monkey characteristics, of course, different from those monkeys that we now see; or beings called man, different from us in height, weight, brain volume, but nevertheless with specific anthropological features of a man. But creatures, so that, for example, he had both monkey and human signs at the same time - for example, you know that a monkey's feet look like a palm - this is such a specific monkey sign.
A. Mitrofanova
Comfortable to grip.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Yes. And at the same time, there are specific human signs regarding the structure of the jaw, the volume of the brain, and others. So, it is still not possible to find a creature so that there is one and the other.
A. Mitrofanova
That is the transitional phase.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Yes, there is no transitional being. This problem has not yet been resolved. And if we seriously discuss it, then again - the hypothesis has not been proven. But it serves an ideology - the ideology of life without God. And that's why she's popular. And that is why it is being promoted not only at the level of the scientific community, but primarily ideologically. Just a few years ago, the European Parliament passed a resolution that if the evolutionary hypothesis is criticized in European schools, then this approach is considered incorrect, and this should be prohibited. It reminds me a lot of the Soviet period, when everything that deviated from the party's resolutions had to be banned simply because it was contrary to the party's resolutions.
A. Mitrofanova
Father Vadim, let us now avoid talking about what the European Parliament has decided, because we risk falling into generalizations here. After all, European schools are very different in terms of the education system, depending on the country. For example, in Germany it is amazingly interesting to teach a subject that is mandatory in all schools, which is called "religion", that is, "religion". And how interesting textbooks are there, how educated teachers there are! I went, I talked to them, I saw how it happens. And I saw children who come after these lessons and continue to discuss some topics with their parents. It's all very interesting. Let's not go in this direction now, this is a separate big conversation. But I would like - when we actually talk about Christian anthropology, we say that man is the image and likeness of God, this is God's creation, this is God's beloved creation. Moreover, the only creation of all that was created by God, about which God said that "this is very good." He created the earth, water, land, sky - it was good. Animals: leviathan, hippos - everything in the world, looks at them and says: "This is good." And he looked at the man and said: “Very well.” Why?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Because only man among the beings of the visible world has the image and likeness of the Divine. And moreover, man, possessing this image, is destined to rule over this world. Remember, the Holy Scripture says so: "And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field." This principle of dominion, domination, which is inherent in a person, does not consist in the fact that I can break a birch in the field, turn the riverbeds back, but in the fact that my personal spiritual change becomes a condition for the existence of the surrounding world. The question, by the way, is interesting, I always ask it to our students in the classroom - God, when He planted paradise for man, He introduces Adam there and says: "Keep and cultivate it." Well, it's understandable to keep paradise - to protect it so that no one hurts it - neither he himself did not hurt, nor animals. And to cultivate means to transform, to do better. But how can one make better what the all-perfect God has created?
A. Mitrofanova
Logical, good question.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
How can you improve what God has created? Just imagine: you were brought into the hall of the Tretyakov Gallery, into the hall of icon painting. And they say: “Here are the icons of Daniil Cherny, Andrei Rublev. Keep and cultivate these icons." How to store, probably, you still somehow imagine: to protect ...
A. Mitrofanova
Maintain temperature. I have no idea how, but there are experts who know.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Yes, it can be built. And to cultivate - what is it? Should I take paints and brushes and paint something on the icons of Daniil Cherny, Andrei Rublev and Theophan the Greek? It is nonsense.
A. Mitrofanova
This is blasphemy.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Yes. And yet the task is set. How should it be done? And in the Holy Fathers, in Gregory of Nyssa, in St. Maximus the Confessor, this line runs through the entire patristic tradition - it is described that a person must change the world by changing himself. Since each person is a microcosm, all the created principles of the world are represented in it: the world of plants, and the world of animals, and the world of minerals - not because he evolved from them, but God initially arranged it that way - then, being in unity and harmony, these created principles are connected with the surrounding Universe. And the way in which these creaturely principles will be transformed in him through grace will be reflected, how the circles on the water will diverge into the surrounding Universe. And thus, a person, rising to God, he along with himself would raise the whole Universe. Vladimir Nikolaevich Lossky, a remarkable Russian theologian of the 20th century, has such wonderful words, he says: “God created man as a hypostasis of the created cosmos, and the created cosmos is a continuation of his corporeality.”
A. Mitrofanova
Is it possible in Russian now - translation from Russian into Russian, decipher what it means?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Man is an incarnation, that is, as it were, an intercessor, a person, a priest from the whole Universe, the created Universe. But as if the whole Universe follows him - therefore, as if grace is transmitted through him to the world around him. And so that you understand that this mechanism has been established and exists to this day, and it works, I will give you a few illustrations. Let's remember: when God drives Adam out of paradise, He tells him: "Cursed is the earth for you," that is, because of you. She has not sinned in any way, but since you are the lord and you have sinned, she will suffer, she will now have thorns and thistles on her, but she will now bring them to you. You didn't listen to God, now she won't listen to you. Therefore, the degradation of man was reflected in the degradation of the universe. The Apostle Paul in Romans 8 says that “the whole creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but by the will of him who subjected it, in the hope that the creation itself would be freed from the bondage of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the sons of God.” That is, the whole creation is waiting: well, when will man be saved? Because when man is saved, then the world will be saved. Man is such a key figure in the universe. And who owns a man, he owns the world. Therefore, the devil needed to take possession of a person. And Christ, saving man, saves the whole world. We call Him the Savior of the world. It seems that formally we would have to say that He is the Savior of people, people. And He is the Savior of the world, because by saving a person, He saves the whole world.
A. Mitrofanova
But does God - forgive me for arguing in such anthropomorphic characteristics - but does God have a goal to take possession of a person? If he had to possess a person, he would have done it in the first place.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Save a person. The purpose of the devil is to take possession of a person. And God's goal is to save a person and return him to his original state, to his original calling, which he had, but has not yet fulfilled. In fact, this is the destiny of man, which was given in paradise, it is being revived in Christianity. Remember, in the Gospel the Lord says to his disciples: "Be perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect." This is what was said to Adam, He kind of reminds. People have forgotten about it, they are thinking how to live their 70-80 years, that's all. And He says you have an infinite perspective of life. Therefore, it is understandable why we are immortal beings, because we have an immortal goal - to be perfect, like our Heavenly Father.
A. Pichugin
Let's continue in just a minute. Archpriest Vadim Leonov is a teacher at the Sretensky Theological Seminary, associate professor, candidate of theology and cleric of the churches of the Patriarchal Metochion and churches in Zaryadye. Alla Mitrofanova ...
A. Mitrofanova
- ... Alexey Pichugin.
A. Pichugin
We'll be back in a minute.
A. Mitrofanova
Once again, good bright evening, dear listeners! Alexey Pichugin, I'm Alla Mitrofanova. And let me remind you that our guest today is Archpriest Vadim Leonov, Associate Professor at the Sretensky Theological Seminary, candidate of theology and cleric of churches in Zaryadye of the Patriarchal Compound. Today we are talking about what Christian anthropology is, since Father Vadim is the author of an anthology and a textbook on this discipline, the scientific discipline of theology. We are trying to figure out what, in fact, within the framework of the Christian tradition, Christian teaching, is the view of the origin of man, the purpose of man, why we are here, what our life is about and what will happen after. Father Vadim, we ended the first part of the conversation with the thought that the purpose of a person in its entirety, it, in fact, will be fulfilled not here, not in this life, but there, apparently, when ... Or, maybe, I did not understand you correctly? You said that in Christianity this very nature of man is restored. But you understand how - after all, if Adam was given the commandment to cultivate the garden, maybe we are fulfilling this commandment. The commandment that is given to us in the New Testament: be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect - it is so beyond. How to fulfill it in this life is not very clear. And how to be here?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
The fact of the matter is that this commandment is not given simply for earthly life, for 70-80 years. Earthly life is given to man only for him to determine himself, to firmly determine himself - with whom will he be in eternity? With or without God?
A. Mitrofanova
That is, this task is still ... That is, I understood correctly - which in eternity must be solved.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
It cannot be fully solved, because it is impossible for a person to reach God, to be perfect, as the Heavenly Father is perfect. But you can strive for this goal, and you can do it indefinitely. Therefore, it becomes clear why a person is given immortality - an infinitely great goal, an infinitely great life. But in order to start this life, you need to firmly determine yourself: with whom will I be? To form a certain vector of movement - either towards God, or away from God. If this vector of movement is formed, then yes, the movement continues, of course, beyond the threshold of death, after the Second Coming of Christ in the future Kingdom of Christ. It will not be just a static state, as in the Islamic idea of paradise - to lie down and enjoy life, and that's it. This will be spiritual perfection in God, but without obstacles, without sinful temptations. Remember how one of the Beatitudes of Christ says: "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled." That is, they will be satisfied with the truth of God, life according to the truth of God, a righteous life, because there will no longer be temptations, obstacles in order to carry it out.
A. Mitrofanova
This is a somewhat more complex picture of the world than the one that those people who suffer here on earth, then in the Kingdom of Heaven will definitely receive some kind of reward, redemption, etc. This picture of the world is about the fact that we, being here in this life, must do as much as possible in order to tune our receptors to God. Because then we'll have more opportunities there to continue that design for us.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
It is necessary to transform both personality and nature so that it becomes appropriate for the future life. If you have not grown wings, and you are placed to live on the clouds - with all the best intentions, you will fall and break. Therefore, the wings must grow, and for this life is given. If you have not grown up, even with all the best undertakings, you will not be able to live and exist there. This is, of course, figurative, but you understand what I'm talking about.
A. Mitrofanova
Yes, when I think about such things, I call it “pumping the heart muscle” to myself. Because you can be seven spans in the forehead, with brains the size of half a planet, but if the heart muscle is not pumped up, then it will be very difficult in eternity. It seems to me. I could be wrong, but I think it is.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
If we talk about Orthodox anthropology, about Orthodox asceticism, then, of course, there is a holistic approach to man. That is, a person must be transformed both in soul and body, and mind, and heart, and will, and how a personality should be formed. Orthodox asceticism is wonderful. And, in fact, one of the goals of this book, which we are discussing today, is to convey that the Church has not only a holistic vision of a person, but also a holistic vision of a transfigured person.
A. Pichugin
Let's look at the terms then. I'm sorry that I have to stop and ask for clarification all the time. But when we say "asceticism", then most often we mean a strict monastic life, but not our secular city life.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Of course, secular city life is not asceticism. And it is quite possible to combine life in the world and the principles of ascetic life, and there are many examples of such. Not only somewhere in the lives of the saints in antiquity, but also in our lives. It is clear that asceticism is not just some formal set of prescriptions that everyone is obliged to fulfill. This is your individual plan for spiritual development, which, of course, in theory, should help you draw up your spiritual mentor, based on who you are, where you are, what you can, what you cannot. Of course, after simply reading The Philokalia and starting to design these things on your own, the probability of mistakes is very high. Very large. But, again, in order to avoid these mistakes as far as possible, this book is also intended to some extent. So that at least a person understands who he really is. And a person who tries to present asceticism simply in the form of a formal set and project it onto himself, then he really encounters the contradiction that you are talking about - he does not see how to combine the principles of John of the Ladder with his work and family, which means that this is all for me no need.
A. Mitrofanova
John of the Ladder or work and family. (Laughs.)
Prot. Vadim Leonov
A. Mitrofanova
Either one or the other.
A. Pichugin
I knew people who had the theology of the Greek Fathers - what Church, what Easter, what services?! What for? They already knew neither the church nor the secular calendar, but the theology of the Greek fathers is there, it has completely swallowed up their lives.
A. Mitrofanova
Apparently, nothing good, unfortunately.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
This is self-activity, in the spiritual life it is extremely dangerous, and the Greek Holy Fathers, among other things, warn about this. Friends, I want to say that in this case, Orthodox asceticism resembles secular medicine. You perfectly understand that information about every medicine, a description of every disease is now available on the Internet. And the temptation to start self-treatment is very, very great. This accessible knowledge creates the illusion that I myself can do everything. Exactly the same temptation exists in spiritual life - the Holy Fathers are accessible, churches are accessible, open, I myself am so smart, I know everything, I read everything, now I will come up with the principles of spiritual life for myself. And as a result, it turns out that nothing works - at best. And sometimes tragic.
A. Mitrofanova
Let's not look in the direction of the tragic outcome now. We have the hope that everything will be fine in eternity. In any case, I would very much like it to be so. But in order for this to be so, it is obviously necessary to make some serious efforts. And from the point of view of that discipline, that branch of theology that you are engaged in - Christian anthropology - what should (I don’t like this word - “do”) a person with himself, how should he try, how to change himself? What should you first try to notice in yourself and how to pay attention to it?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
For a beginner, I would pay attention to two details. The first detail and the first step that he must take is to turn to God with a personal prayer. God is omnipotent, all-good, He is love, but He does not force anyone. And until a person goes, turns his face to Him and says at least: “Lord! Who are you? I want to know You,” until a personal dialogue arises between a person and God, all ascetic efforts, some kind of imitation of someone, will be fruitless, and sometimes, perhaps, they will bring a negative result. The beginning is a personal appeal to God. God never rejects such an appeal, but, on the contrary, welcomes it in every possible way. There are many such examples. I even admit that I also had such a spiritual experiment in my life. I was a student and once I came to the Kirillo-Belozersky Monastery, I was still such, one might say, an unbeliever. But the northern monasteries of Russia made a strong impression on me: Kirillo-Belozersky, the Ferapontov Monastery, the frescoes of Dionysius. When I considered it, I thought: “Well, it cannot be that human deceit has existed for so long and created such beautiful things. Now, if Christianity is a deceit, it cannot produce such beauty.” This thought haunted me the whole trip. And then - I even remember this place, near the Kirillo-Belozers monastery by the lake - I said right on the shore of this lake: “Lord! If you exist, let me know about you somehow. I will try to live as best I can, according to Your commandments, to do something, but You somehow respond so that I understand that You exist. I contacted him personally. And this trip was a turning point in my life. I will not say that God stretched out his hand from heaven and said: “Go there,” or thunder and lightning struck, no. But there was such a tectonic shift. It was the end of the 80s, people began to appear around me who began to bring not only what was then forbidden - then the prohibitions began to disappear - but samizdat Christian literature: John of Kronstadt, "The Philokalia" ...
A. Pichugin
And you studied in Europe, wasn't it easier there?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
There is no Orthodoxy in Europe, practically it is little represented, and what is represented ...
A. Mitrofanova
It is just widely represented.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
This is in modern ... And I studied in Budapest, at the University of Budapest. It is clear that there was a small parish of the Moscow Patriarchate. But that was already after I became a church member, I had already gone there to study. But my turning point happened earlier, when I was still studying in Moscow. And around me began to appear people who began to explain to me what Christianity is in essence. And I already took it as God's answer to my request. So I'm convinced of that - that the first step is...
A. Mitrofanova
Personal appeal.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Personal appeal to God. And the second step - of course, you need to get at least a basic idea of who is God and who is man. This is also my firm conviction, which I have already tested to some extent on myself and on my unfortunate parishioners. (Laughs) And besides, I can justify it theologically, if it comes to that. For example, there is a wonderful work by Theophan the Recluse "What is spiritual life and how to tune in to it." These are letters addressed to a girl who decided to lead
Christian life, secular girl, simple, sincere. And Theophan the Recluse gives her instructions systematically, consistently raising her to high levels of spiritual life. 80 letters. So, the first 22 letters out of these 80 letters are essentially a short course in anthropology. He explains who a person is, why he was created, how his nature consists - body, soul, spirit, how they interact. What is will, mind, feelings. Then he begins to explain how they have degraded, changed, what passions are. And then he teaches her to pray, fight against passions, etc. 22 letters, that is, a quarter of the text - this is a short course in anthropology. And this applies not only to Theophan the Recluse. Open, for example, the famous ascetic classics - Abba Dorotheus. The first two words - he first explains to his monks who a person is, why he was created, what his purpose is, what happened to him. And then he teaches them prayer and good deeds.
A. Pichugin
Archpriest Vadim Leonov - Associate Professor at the Sretensky Theological Seminary, Candidate of Theology today is a guest of the Bright Evening program on the light radio. Father Vadim, what do you think - there is an opinion that different people in Christianity have quite different levels of perception of things. For some, perhaps, what we are talking about is not enough. For some, the Sunday sermon from the pulpit is enough in their Christian life. But after all, indeed, it is not given to everyone to comprehend - not everyone wants, not everyone likes it, not everyone is interested in it - to comprehend some deep things that are rooted in Eastern theology. Someone has some other way in Orthodoxy.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Yes, absolutely right. In fact, there are quite a few people who may not need this theology, but who have very strong faith, trust and mentors. Such a tradition, for example, developed in monasteries, but it also exists in early Christianity. Open the Didache, The Teachings of the 12 Apostles is one of the early Christian texts that emerged shortly after the last New Testament texts. Sometimes, even in some Churches, the Didache was included in the canon of the New Testament books. So, because this book is very simple in content, you can see how it all lined up. The Didache begins with the fact that there is a way of life, there is a way of death. The path of life and the path of death are described. If you want - choose the path of death, if you want - choose the path of life. If you choose the path of life, we will explain to you how to go through it - this is such a simplified scheme of this book. Next is a description of how to walk the path of life, then comes a set of prescriptions. If you trust the author of this book, then of course you may not ask deep philosophical, theological questions. And for such people, of course, there is no need to dive into theological depths, because they are not burdened by these problematized reflections, doubts. They look at the world easier and they go to God more easily. For our intelligentsia, for people who think it is so easy to pass, it is almost impossible for them to understand: why will I take this step, and what will happen to me, and why exactly this is happening to me? These people need books, these people need systems...
A. Pichugin
It's most likely the humanities. Or people who have found humanists in themselves, people who strive for knowledge through a certain kind of literature, through work with sources.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
That is, people who cannot overcome some misunderstanding of their faith. This, as a rule, is a lack of faith - I may upset some of the listeners.
A. Pichugin
It seems to me, on the contrary, it is good, it is a certain way of knowledge. And if I'm so gullible - tell me that white is black and black is white, I'll probably believe. Father will tell me that this is so, and this is so, I will believe him. Another priest will tell me that everything is not so, I will also believe. And here is an attempt at some introspection of what is happening.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
It is clear that we now do not belong to the traditions of such a natural Christian growth. We are in a very complex, contradictory world, often aggressive towards Christianity, so we naturally question not only what is outside of Christianity, but also within Christianity. We are already formed this way, and this also has the right to exist. In no way am I criticizing this position.
A. Mitrofanova
I beg your pardon, but I still allow myself to note in this connection that people who identify themselves as Christians are sometimes also very aggressive towards the world around them, and this does not make the dialogue easier, to put it mildly, but aggravates it very much. You said that the outside world is aggressive towards Christianity, and I thought that sometimes this is mutual. I don't know, those people who are as aggressive towards the outside world as they are Christians - it's not for me to judge. Not to me, definitely. But this is both a problem.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Well, let's touch on this issue, since you touched it. And I will return - yes, there is, as it were, one situation, but there are other situations. Suppose a person is immersed in the Christian tradition. A classic, textbook example is a monastery, properly arranged. There are spiritual traditions, there is an elder, there is a confessor. A person, getting into this current, he simply trusts him. I remember this feeling that I had on Mount Athos when I first got there: some strange world - everyone prays, it’s as if natural, everyone is trying to fulfill some gospel commandments - and all this is somehow natural . It feels like I got into the course of the river, which carries me where I need to go, and I just need to trust him. And you don't have to mess around here. This is completely opposite to the feeling that I experience in the world - when I always feel like a person who is rowing against the current, trying. And it's hard - the current still blows you away, but you still row. And on Athos, I rest precisely - not because I am lying on the sand, of course I am not lying on the sand, but I go, I pray in the monasteries as best I can. But I rest because I don't have to resist, it carries me to the right place. We must trust the tradition that exists here. And it's a completely different life, you know. Of course, in the context of such a life, too many philosophical, theological questions only dull, slow down this movement, and do not help.
A. Mitrofanova
Remember the parable about the three elders who sat on the island and prayed. A missionary sailed to them, found that they were praying and praying, but they didn’t know any prayers, except for “Three of you, three of us, have mercy on us!” This is how they approached God. A very famous story. And he decided to teach them the prayer "Our Father". Taught, taught, exhausted, but taught in the end. He sat back in the boat, sailed away, looked, they shouted to him from the shore: “Stop, stop, father!” He turns around - to him one of these elders rushes through the water. He says: "What are you?" - “Yes, you understand,” says the man standing on the water, “Our Father, who art…” And then how? Forgot". Here, too - from a great mind does not always happen ...
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Woe from the mind.
A. Mitrofanova
Yes, grief from the mind - that's for sure, yes. This also happens, but this does not mean that it is necessary to fundamentally avoid those opportunities for expanding the boundaries of one's own knowledge that the surrounding world offers. Sometimes it is very useful, incredibly interesting and extremely exciting. And for what, if not for this - not for the study of the world - did the Lord create us so versatile?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
I will also touch on the topic that you touched upon when commenting on my reasoning - that sometimes Christians are aggressive about the world. Don't forget, dear ones, that...
A. Mitrofanova
Or those people who seem to be Christians.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Yes Yes. The church is a hospital. And people come there and are not instantly healed. When you come to the polyclinic, you don’t meet everyone there absolutely healthy in the corridors and offices…
A. Pichugin
They come in sick, they leave healthy.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
And even: they come sick, they leave healthy - this is also a naive idea ...
A. Mitrofanova
It's kind of an ideal choice.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
It is clear that it does not exist in reality. So it is in the Church, the Church is a hospital. And if a person is in the Church, this does not mean that he is already completely healthy and holy. It is natural that he came, and it is right that he came to the Church as to a hospital, but he has not yet been healed, he is still on the way to recovery, we must help him. Therefore, I am not afraid of such cases. This, of course, can be sad and bad, but you need to be creative about it. A man nevertheless came to the Church - that's it, he came to us, we must help him. And just condemn, say: “Here, you are a disgrace to us, go away from here from us” ...
A. Pichugin
And if he has been in the Church since childhood? Now a generation of people has already grown up, many of which, they are now more than 20 years old, who have been in the Church from birth. Which, by the way, does not add to their knowledge, because they take many things for granted, do not think about them.
A. Mitrofanova
And they don’t dig, they don’t search, by the way.
Prot. Vadim Leonov
There is such a problem, yes, when a person has already formed a certain stereotype, our Pharisaic behavior, Orthodox native - a stereotype of behavior that seems to him saving and self-sufficient, comfortable. And he doesn't want to get out of it. And this, of course, is sad, because a person is a being - again, we return to anthropology - a developing one, he must improve himself. I have to be able the next day what I couldn't do yesterday. Or at least in a year I should have such virtues that I did not have a year ago. I have to develop. If I do not develop, then, again, I am not fulfilling the divine destiny - it means that I am not yet a person in the full sense of the word, which means that something is wrong in my life. And of course, if you say that a person has conserved himself, then you can already make a diagnosis - he has spiritual problems. But what exactly - this must be dealt with personally.
A. Mitrofanova
It's amazing to talk to you. And since Christian anthropology has a huge number of topics that it includes, for example, your lecture that I listened to was devoted to the creation of man, man and woman - about why we are so different. Why was it necessary to create from the side of Adam not the same person as he, but another, that is, a woman, different, why was it necessary - different from him? Such an amazing and interesting story. I would very much like you to come to us again, and we will talk about this topic and many others. What, in fact, is the human vocation and how to realize it, how to feel for this meaning of life - after all, it can take different forms for different people. The content may vary somewhat, but the end goal is the same. Here's how to define it for yourself, find it? What is it, in what ways and how to designate this search vector for yourself in life? Let's try?
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Let's. I will be glad to meet you again.
A. Mitrofanova
Come. And thank you very much for this conversation. Let me remind you that Alexey Pichugin and I, Alla Mitrofanova, organized the Bright Evening program for you. And in our studio there was Archpriest Vadim Leonov, an associate professor at the Sretensky Theological Seminary, a candidate of theology and a clergyman of churches in Moscow's Zaryadye.
A. Pichugin
Thank you! Christian anthropology is the theme of our program. And we should probably remind our listeners once again that Father Vadim's book has been published, it's called Fundamentals of Orthodox Anthropology, it was published by the publishing house of the Moscow Patriarchy.
A. Mitrofanova
And "Anthology on the Basics of Orthodox Anthropology" is a collection of texts, also published by the Moscow Patriarchate.
A. Pichugin
Thanks, all the best!
A. Mitrofanova
Goodbye!
Prot. Vadim Leonov
Good luck! Goodbye, dear listeners.
Archpriest Vadim Leonov
Archpriest Vadim Leonov
Basic information:
Archpriest Vadim Leonov
Academic degree: candidate
Academic title: associate professor
Core Subjects: Dogmatic Theology
